WIRED’s Uncanny Valley: Tech Visa Policies – US vs China

Introduction

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Last month, when news broke that H1 – B visa holders in the US would be subject to a substantial new fee of $100,000, it triggered chaos and confusion among numerous tech workers and their employers. This is the latest in a series of restrictive visa measures implemented by the Trump administration, causing tech talent to question whether they should seek opportunities elsewhere.

In this podcast, Lauren Goode, a senior correspondent at WIRED, engages in a discussion with senior writer Zeyi Yang and senior editor Louise Matsakis. They explore the short – term and long – term implications of these measures, as well as how China is capitalizing on this moment by introducing a new visa program to attract tech talent.

You can follow Lauren Goode on Bluesky at @laurengoode, Zeyi Yang on Bluesky at @zeyiyang, and Louise Matsakis on Bluesky at @lmatsakis. If you have any inquiries, comments, or suggestions, please write to us at uncannyvalley@wired.com.

Mentioned in this episode:
– “$3,800 Flights and Aborted Takeoffs: How Trump’s H – 1B Announcement Panicked Tech Workers” by Zeyi Yang
– “China Rolls Out Its First Talent Visa as the US Retreats on H – 1Bs” by Louise Matsakis
– “A Journey Into the Heart of Labubu” by Zeyi Yang

How to Listen

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Transcript Note: This is an automated transcript and may contain inaccuracies.

Podcast Discussion

Initial Greetings and Introduction to the Topic

Lauren Goode: Hello, Louise. How are you this week?
Louise Matsakis: I’m well. I’m excited to be substituting for Mike this week.
Lauren Goode: Especially considering the commotion outside your apartment.
Louise Matsakis: Indeed, there’s a massive sinkhole on my block, and currently, I have no running water. Quite eventful.
Lauren Goode: And yet, you’re still podcasting through it. We’re truly grateful.
Louise Matsakis: Of course, Lauren. Nothing would prevent me from participating in the podcast.
Lauren Goode: Thank you for being our guest co – host for two consecutive weeks. It’s a busy time for everyone. I’m particularly thrilled to have you on the podcast today due to the topic we’ll be discussing. Before we delve into it, we have another colleague joining us, Zeyi Yang. Hello, Zeyi. How are you?
Zeyi Yang: I’m good. I’m enjoying the last warm day in New York. I think the high today is 80 degrees, but it’s all downhill from here.

Lauren Goode: Zeyi, you recently reported on an incident that occurred right after the Trump administration announced last month that H – 1B visa holders, one of the most popular work visa programs in the country, would have to pay a hefty new $100,000 fee. You spoke with a source, Xie Yun, about her firsthand experience. Briefly, what happened to her?
Zeyi Yang: Xie Yun works for semiconductor companies in Silicon Valley. She had just completed a six – week business trip that ended in Bangkok. After that, she planned to spend two or three weeks at home in China. She was on a flight from Bangkok to Hong Kong and then to her hometown in Wuqi. Just as the plane was about to land, she connected to the internet and learned about Trump’s announcement of the new $100,000 H – 1B visa fee that could apply to her. Within three hours, she was in a state of panic, discussing with her friends about what to do. Subsequently, she immediately boarded a plane back to the United States via Shanghai and then to Los Angeles. This is just one example of many H – 1B visa holders outside the US who were struggling to determine whether they would have to pay $100,000 if they didn’t return to the US within 24 hours. This is the latest in a series of immigration changes under the current Trump administration, leaving many immigrant workers in Silicon Valley and across the US uncertain about their future.

Lauren Goode: This is WIRED’s Uncanny Valley, a show exploring the people, power, and influence of Silicon Valley. Today, we’re discussing the state of work visas for tech talent. The Trump administration’s recent announcement that new H – 1B visa holders would need to pay a $100,000 fee has created a wave of confusion among many tech workers and their employers. This move further solidifies the administration’s ongoing crackdown on visas and stands in sharp contrast to China’s approach. China has announced a new visa program aimed at attracting young professionals and those with degrees in science and technology to study and conduct business there. We’ll explore the potential impacts of these different approaches on the tech industry, from the talent pipeline to the future of innovation. I’m Lauren Good, a senior correspondent at WIRED.
Louise Matsakis: I’m Louise Matsakis, senior business editor.
Zeyi Yang: And I’m Zeyi Yang, senior writer covering tech and business in China.

Understanding H – 1B Visas and the New Directive’s Impact

Lauren Goode: Zeyi, you were sharing Xie Yun’s experience and how she had to abruptly change her plans and found herself in a state of migratory uncertainty when the news of the new H – 1B visa fee broke. Since then, there has been additional reporting on the actual rules and fees for H – 1B visas. But let’s first explain how these visas typically work for our listeners who are unfamiliar, and then discuss why the new directive caused such chaos. How do H – 1B visas generally operate?
Louise Matsakis: The H – 1B visas were first introduced in 1990, so they’ve been around for over 30 years. The simplest way to understand them is that they’re the most accessible visas for individuals with a bachelor’s or advanced degree to legally work in the United States. We’re talking about a large number of people who either obtained their higher education abroad or in the US, relying on this relatively stable visa program to secure office jobs, teaching positions, or hospital jobs in the US. In the past decade, Silicon Valley tech companies have significantly benefited from this program as it enables them to bring in thousands of skilled workers with advanced degrees. That’s why some of the major tech companies are among the largest sponsors of H – 1B Visas each year.
Lauren Goode: There is a cap on the number of visas issued, correct? And employers must submit the workers they wish to sponsor. Can you elaborate on that process?
Louise Matsakis: Yes, precisely. The first requirement for an H – 1B Visa is having a full – time job, and the employer must be willing to cover the lawyer’s fees and application fees to sponsor the visa application. Then, there’s the second aspect. Only a certain number of H – 1B visas are issued annually, and the number of applications usually exceeds this limit. So, a lottery system is employed, where everyone has an equal chance, except those with a master’s degree, who get a second chance to be selected as lottery winners for the H – 1B visa in a given year. If an applicant doesn’t win, they have to wait a full year before reapplying.
Lauren Goode: In recent years, as you’ve mentioned, companies like Amazon, Microsoft, Meta, Google, along with some large IT consulting firms, tend to secure the most H – 1Bs for their employees. It’s crucial for the tech industry. Thus, the new directive issued a few weeks ago threw the industry into chaos. Why was it so confusing?
Louise Matsakis: Firstly, that weekend… The policy was initially announced on Friday and then updated on Saturday and Sunday. The language used by different White House officials and in various documents was inconsistent. For example, when the Secretary of Commerce, Howard Lutnick, announced this in the White House in front of reporters, he stated that people would have to pay this H – 1B fee every year. However, the next day, White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt clarified that it was only a one – time fee, which was completely different from what was said the previous day. So, there was a great deal of confusion regarding the amount to be paid. Additionally, one of the major confusions when it was first announced was whether those who had already obtained an H – 1B visa, having gone through the sponsorship and related processes, would still have to pay. This was later explained on the second day that if you already had a valid visa, you would be exempt from the new policy. But many people were already panicking during those two days.
Lauren Goode: Wait, why is the US Commerce Secretary involved in visa decisions? Louise, do you have any insights?
Louise Matsakis: Lauren, the main reason is that Congress is not involved. It’s clear that a congressional act would be required to legally change these immigration policies in a proper manner. Instead, the Trump administration is acting unilaterally to introduce these changes. One of the key projects Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary, has taken on is raising funds for the US government. The $100,000 fee is one example, and another is the Gold Visa, which I reported on with our colleague Zoë Schiffer earlier this year. It’s a $1 million visa that seemingly any wealthy individual from anywhere in the world could purchase to immigrate to the US.
Lauren Goode: That seems highly unorthodox.
Louise Matsakis: I think that’s a fair assessment. This is not the typical way immigration policy is formulated. It’s unclear at this point if anyone has actually paid for a Gold Visa or the $100,000 fee, and if so, whether they could take the administration to court.

Critiques of the H – 1B Program and Potential Changes

Lauren Goode: Interesting. Well, if anyone has paid for that visa, we’d like to hear from you. Please contact us. I’d like us to discuss more about what this means for the future talent pipeline and immigration to the US. But can one of you quickly tell us what the critiques of the current H – 1B program are?
Louise Matsakis: I can answer that, Lauren. In many ways, the H – 1B Visa program has essentially become two distinct programs under the same umbrella. On one hand, a significant number of these visas are going to some of the world’s top engineers, AI researchers, and doctors who work in companies, hospitals, and universities across the country. On the other hand, many visas are being issued to IT firms that mainly provide IT support for companies, and these jobs often offer relatively low pay. While they are technically tech jobs, they may not involve the highly skilled workers one might associate with companies like Google or OpenAI. It’s more of an everyday IT job, such as fixing computers or troubleshooting software problems. The critique of the H – 1B visa is that many Americans could perform these jobs. These are not necessarily specialized skills, and in recent years, there has been a lot of criticism that these IT firms are abusing the H – 1B visa to bring in workers who may be exploited or who are not contributing to highly crucial economic roles, and that these positions could be filled by Americans.
Lauren Goode: And is there any indication that changing the economic structure of the H – 1B would actually address this?
Louise Matsakis: The Trump administration has floated several proposals. One of them is to eliminate the lottery system and instead prioritize people with the highest salaries. However, a critique of this approach is that it’s difficult to predict, for example, when someone like Elon Musk came to the US, whether they would become a once – in – a – generation entrepreneur or contribute to developing something like ChatGPT. The lottery system, in essence, allows for a diverse range of people at different career stages to be brought in, rather than only giving visas to established experts at the top of the income ladder.
Lauren Goode: Right. And in academia, the best talent isn’t always the highest – paid.
Zeyi Yang: Lauren and Louise, I haven’t shared this with you yet, but I’ve been through the H – 1B visa application process. After graduating from grad school here, my first visa application was for an H – 1B, and I didn’t win the lottery. At that time, I was understandably frustrated, thinking, “Why is it a random lottery process? It doesn’t seem to consider much.” But if the solution is to only give visas to the highest earners, I still wouldn’t have gotten the visa. So, I think many people are unsure if the lottery system is the best for H – 1B, but they would likely be equally dissatisfied if visas were distributed solely based on salary ranking.
Lauren Goode: Good point, and we’re glad you’re here at WIRED, Zeyi. Zeyi, what other stories are you hearing from your sources about how this will affect them?
Zeyi Yang: We can consider the short – term and long – term impacts. In the short – term, during the weekend of September 19th when the policy was announced, many people were making last – minute travel plan changes. They were unsure if not returning to the US promptly would result in them having to pay the fee. I heard from people who had just landed in China, planning to take a month – long break, but rushed back to the US as soon as possible. I also heard from Emily, who works in finance in New York City. She was on a plane to Paris for a vacation. Just as the plane was about to take off, she received advice from an immigration attorney she was consulting, saying she shouldn’t leave the country. She then convinced the flight attendant to let her off the plane, and the pilot agreed. This was one of the more dramatic experiences I heard. Generally, people are losing money and missing weddings and family holidays to avoid falling victim to the new policy. In the long – term, there are still many uncertainties regarding the H – 1B visa policy. For example, for people changing jobs or those who have already won the lottery but need to transfer to a new employer, it’s unclear if they would have to pay the fee. There are many unanswered questions, and they may still be affected even if they’ve already gone through the H – 1B process.
Lauren Goode: We should note that there’s an interesting caveat to the new fee rule. The administration will allow certain industries or employers to seek exemptions from the administration, at the discretion of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem. Critics are concerned that this could potentially create a mechanism for companies to curry favor with the administration for special treatment, which seems to be a common pattern. Any final thoughts on what you think the short – term and long – term effects of this ongoing hostility towards visa holders could mean for the tech industry?
Louise Matsakis: It’s important to note that this new $100,000 fee lacks a solid legal basis. The H – 1B visa program was established through a congressional act and is a law, while this new fee was essentially added via an executive order. We could potentially see litigation, and this issue might even reach the Supreme Court. In the meantime, it’s creating a great deal of uncertainty for companies, making hiring more difficult. Like many of the economic policies introduced by the Trump administration, it’s causing chaos and making it harder for anyone to predict what will happen next or make decisions.
Zeyi Yang: Regarding the potential exemptions for certain industries or companies, I observed an interesting reaction after the policy announcement. Some Silicon Valley figures, such as Sam Altman and Jensen Huang, were trying to see the positive side. When publicly asked about their thoughts on the new H – 1B fees, they said, “Maybe this will help us determine the direction we want to take with legal immigration.” My interpretation is that if certain industries like AI or semiconductors can obtain exemptions while others can’t, it will create a clear policy advantage for those industries. So, some companies are exploring whether this could be beneficial for them, creating an advantage in the future.

China’s New Visa Program and Its Implications

Lauren Goode: So, you’re suggesting that there’s a possibility that the most powerful individuals could shape the policy.
Zeyi Yang: How unexpected is that?
Lauren Goode: Exactly. Alright, let’s take a short break. When we return, we’ll discuss China’s counter – approach. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. Today, we’re discussing how new visa rules, like those for the H – 1B, are disrupting Silicon Valley. Now, let’s turn our attention to China, which, unlike the US, is actively seeking to make it easier for tech talent to join its workforce. However, the situation is more complex than it appears. Louise, you recently reported on this new K visa in China, designed to attract more STEM graduates and workers. Can you tell us about it?
Louise Matsakis: We don’t have all the details of this visa yet, but Chinese authorities have stated that applicants won’t need to obtain an invitation letter from a specific company. This means the visa isn’t tied to individual employers like the H – 1B visa in the US. A foreigner could come to China and have the flexibility to explore different startups in Shanghai or consider joining a hacker house in a tech hub like Hangzhou. In a sense, China is seizing the opportunity to attract leading scientists and researchers who may be excluded from the US. However, in the past couple of weeks, Chinese social media has been inundated with angry comments about the K visa. Many people are concerned that it will give foreign workers an advantage over domestic STEM graduates. In some ways, these concerns are understandable as youth unemployment is already high in China, and there are a large number of highly qualified STEM graduates and college graduates in general struggling to find work. On the other hand, when Zeyi and I started looking through the commentary on this visa program, there was a significant amount of nationalism and xenophobic rhetoric, if not outright racism.
Lauren Goode: Can you give an example?
Louise Matsakis: For instance, some Chinese influencers were spreading conspiracy theories that Indians were planning to use the visa to immigrate to China in large numbers.
Lauren Goode